Plus they make the national drink…ketchup.
So is ketchup technically a jam?
Yes according to the Dutch.
I’m officially calling this post misinformation. See the text of the opinion (emphasis mine). They literally say “Botanically speaking, tomatoes are the fruit of a vine”. This is not about whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable according to specific botanical or common definitions, but about which definition to use for the purpose of the Tariff Act of 1883. It doesn’t say that tomatoes are a vegetable. It doesn’t say that botanically they aren’t fruits. It says that for the purpose of the Tariff Act of 1883 they are vegetables, not fruits.
Nix v. Hedden, 149 U.S. 304 (1893)
[…]
MR. JUSTICE GRAY, after stating the facts in the foregoing language, delivered the opinion of the Court.
The single question in this case is whether tomatoes, considered as provisions, are to be classed as “vegetables” or as “fruit” within the meaning of the Tariff Act of 1883.
The only witnesses called at the trial testified that neither “vegetables” nor “fruit” had any special meaning in trade or commerce different from that given in the dictionaries, and that they had the same meaning in trade today that they had in March, 1883.
The passages cited from the dictionaries define the word “fruit” as the seed of plaints, or that part of plaints which contains the seed, and especially the juicy, pulpy products of certain plants covering and containing the seed. These definitions have no tendency to show that tomatoes are “fruit,” as distinguished from “vegetables” in common speech or within the meaning of the tariff act.
There being no evidence that the words “fruit” and “vegetables” have acquired any special meaning in trade or commerce, they must receive their ordinary meaning. Of that meaning the court is bound to take judicial notice, as it does in regard to all words in our own tongue, and upon such a question dictionaries are admitted not as evidence, but only as aids to the memory and understanding of the court. Brown v. Piper, 91 U. S. 37, 91 U. S. 42; Jones v. United States, 137 U. S. 202, 137 U. S. 216; Nelson v. Cushing, 2 Cush. 519, 532-533; Page v. Fawcet, 1 Leon. 242; Taylor on Evidence (8th ed.), §§ 16, 21.
Botanically speaking, tomatoes are the fruit of a vine, just as are cucumbers, squashes, beans, and peas. But in the common language of the people, whether sellers or consumers of provisions, all these are vegetables which are grown in kitchen gardens, and which, whether eaten cooked or raw, are, like potatoes, carrots, parsnips, turnips, beets, cauliflower, cabbage, celery, and lettuce, usually served at dinner in, with, or after the soup, fish, or meats which constitute the principal part of the repast, and not, like fruits generally, as dessert.
The attempt to class tomatoes as fruit is not unlike a recent attempt to class beans as seeds, of which Mr. Justice Bradley, speaking for this Court, said:
“We do not see why they should be classified as seeds any more than walnuts should be so classified. Both are seeds, in the language of botany or natural history, but not in commerce nor in common parlance. On the other hand, in speaking generally of provisions, beans may well be included under the term ‘vegetables.’ As an article of food on our tables, whether baked or boiled, or forming the basis of soup, they are used as a vegetable, as well when ripe as when green. This is the principal use to which they are put. Beyond the common knowledge which we have on this subject, very little evidence is necessary or can be produced.”
You’re right, and I absolutely upvoted this. Can’t we just laugh at the funny but slightly inaccurate thing? Quit reminding people that America’s courts weren’t always such a joke.
Stupid meme. Many other countries also classify tomatoes in with vegetables for various commerce regulation and taxation purposes. That case was just capitalists trying to get out of paying tariffs by nitpicking the definition of a tomato
I hate these things where people twist reality just so they can make a cute “Americans are so dumb” meme. If you want to bash the US, there are plenty of relevant topics to choose from for criticism. Better yet, read a book once in a while instead of just scrolling the internet and grabbing random shit that’s gone viral.
And BTW, what’s a fruit or vegetable is not some objective Sacred Truth that science “discovered”, it’s that science came up with a system of categorizing plants that people deemed to be useful for the study of Botany, just as legislators came up with a slightly different classification useful for taxation, and regular people also classify them in a way that’s useful for cooking purposes. This is not a situation where Science! is an almighty God. It’s just ways of sorting things. “Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.”
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Just a list of items we normally think of as veggies, but actually fruit: cucumbers, squash, peppers, eggplants, avocados, pumpkins.
This leaves out the modern extension of this where pizza meets the requirements of a vegetable due to it containing 2 tablespoons of tomato paste in the “Consolidated and Further Continuing Appropriations Act of 2012”, previously the “Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010”.
Thanks Obama
Because Fruits were taxed higher than vegetables, so importers started listing them as a vegetable.
It’s tax dodges all the way down.
“Fruit” within culinary is usually applied to “sweeter” forms of fruits, and the more savory forms usually get called “vegetable” instead regardless of being botanically called fruits or not.
Nix v. Hedden, 149 U.S. 304 (1893), is a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States in which the Court unanimously held that tomatoes should be classified as vegetables rather than fruits for purposes of tariffs, imports and customs. Justice Horace Gray delivered the opinion of the Court in holding that the Tariff Act of 1883 used the ordinary meaning of the words “fruit” and “vegetable”, instead of the technical botanical meaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden
Yeah, I genuinely don’t see the problem here. There are much weirder classifications with regards to tariffs. (Note that I haven’t been able to fact check this, is could be a popular urban legend.) Converse shoes have a felt lining that makes them considered slippers instead of shoes. The practice is called tariff engineering. (That page lists the Converse thing, so maybe it’s actually true.)
Tomatoes are sweet
Botanically is there such thing as a “vegetable”?
My understanding is that any edible part of a plant is considered vegetable.
VIC?!
Might have been more productive to let them pass it. Lesson learned kinda thing
Vegetables aren’t actually a thing though. Just a bunch of things we grouped because we like eating them.
There’s no such thing as a fish
True. They are just water based government drones, to keep tabs on the mermaid population
Yes there is. Taxonomists aren’t the only people who give meaning to words
“Taxonomists aren’t the only people who give meaning to words”
Eloquently put! You’ve expressed a feeling that I have had for a while now and couldn’t quite put into the appropriate words! Thanks 🙏🏼
*within taxonomy, I think most people can conceive of a fish in colloquial terms.
Whales are taxonomically fish.
No??? They’re mammals, where did you pull this information out of?
All mammals are taxonomically fish. Perhaps even all chordates. YOU are a fish!
After this conversation, I wish I was.
What they are trying to say: One cannot taxonomically group every animal we consider fish without also including all the mammals and i think even reptiles and birds. that’s because there are multiple taxonomic branches of fish that split off of the trunk before our ancestors started to walk on land, and not all of the fish in our branch decided to go on land, and continued their own branch. therefore yes: whales are fish and so are you. what does this mean? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it is technically correct which is, of course, the best kind of correct.
It doesn’t matter why are you roleplaying as a botanist if you don’t see that culinary definitions and scientific classification are two separate things. One is really useless for the average person and the other is probably also a foreign concept to everyone having quirky discussions about whether or not cakes are hotdogs or smoothies, because they are the type of people to tweet a 60 page essay about why expecting neurodivergents people to cook their own meal should be considered a hate crime.
Tomatoes don’t belong in a fruit salad
What about cherry tomatoes or grape tomatoes?
grape tomatoes
Do they make wine out of them?
whether or not cakes are hotdogs or smoothies,
Depends on the preparation, if blended with juice or yogurt: smoothie.
Yogurt would make it a lassi
Did you just assume its gender? It could be a laddie for all you know!
My stubborn position is that all fruits are vegetables.
Anything that comes from a plant (vegetation) is a vegetable.
EDIT: Reading up on the case, they apparently didn’t treat fruits and vegetables as disjoint sets but rather with fruits as a subset of vegetables. So far, so good…
HOWEVER, they also apparently ruled that tomatoes don’t count as a fruit because they aren’t eaten for dessert…
Wow… just… wow.
Fruit is a scientific term. Vegetable is a culinary term.
Fruit is also a culinary term that is not identical to its meaning as a scientific term
There we go. A tomato can be a fruit and not a fruit at the same time.
Oh cool, now we can namedrop Schrödinger into this to give an even more educated impression.
That only makes you seem educated to the uneducated
A real Kroger Dinner situation.
I love you.
That’s the one the SCOTUS used.
because they aren’t eaten for dessert
This sounds to me like a reasonable way to disqualify something as a culinary fruit.
Folks like to make a big hullabaloo about tomatoes being technically a fruit, but no one gives a second thought about referring to peppers, cucumbers, green beans, eggplant, avocado, pumpkins & other squash, or corn on-the-cob as vegetables even though they are all technically fruit.
And I was being picky there, because beans, peas, grains and nuts are all also technically fruit. Heck, lots of “nuts” like peanuts and cashews aren’t even really nuts.
Keep your taxonomy out of my kitchen:
- Fruit are sweet.
- Vegetables are not.
- Grains make bread.
- Herbs and spices add a lot of flavor with a little bit. Herbs are the green ones.
- nuts are. They just are. Don’t think about it too hard.
I think this is more about which definitions to use for the purpose of tariffs than which definitions these things fall under.
Hold the presses!! Americans don’t count avocados as fruit?!
Is that because they’ve never eaten a tree ripened avocado? It’s not sweet like a mango, but it’s sweet. Eat a green banana or strawberry and see if it’s sweet. That’s no way to tell the dessert potential of produce!
That could be part of it. Another part might be that many of us have only had experience with the Haas variety, if any. And then most likely as guacamole.
Wait, you’ve found one! I consider peppers their own thing, culinarily speaking anyway, neither fruit nor vegetable.
The rest of your bullet points I basically agree with, but there’s also
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peppers are peppery, not always hot, red bell are sweet, and green bell tastes like feet.
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seeds are seedy, don’t think about the difference between them and nuts, some questions are not for mortal man.
Peppers are seasoning. ducks
You can season duck with peppers, sure. Seasoning is a verb, to season one uses herbs, spices, peppers, (or if we’re talking about cast iron, oil or wax.)
You don’t consider peppers spices? When something has a lot of pepper, wouldn’t you say it’s… spicy?
Riddle me that.
Red (or any) bell peppers, poblano peppers, banana peppers, Padrón peppers, cherry peppers, shishito peppers, habanada peppers, all peppers with no heat.
Furthermore “heat,” while commonly conflated with “spice,” is not “spice.” “Spices” are not necessarily “hot:”
Anise, allspice, cardamom, mustard seed, coriander, dill seed, clove, nutmeg, turmeric, saffron, vanilla, garlic, mace, sweet paprika, fennel, caraway, cumin, sumac, poppy seeds, sesame seeds, and MORE!
are all not-hot spices. You have been riddled.
You missed a perfect opportunity to add the word picquant into the conversation.
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Fruits are edible seed pods. Nuts are inedible seed pods but have edible seeds.
Fruit makes wine.
Grain makes beer
Nuts in the right contexts make nougat, nut paste or babies.
Fruit are sweet. Vegetables are not.
Carrots, caramelized onions?
Those fruits are of the devil and the less we speak of them the better
You know that caramelized onions don’t come from a plant?
/s?
Sugar beet
Fruit are sweet.
Counterpoint: Oranges, pineapples
Lemons and limes were right there man, they were right there
They’re not fruits by culinary definition.
Unless you eat them like oranges?😯
In that case, seek help.
Edit: On a serious note, I guess this is cultural difference?
Lemons and limes are definitely fruits in my culinary culture. What are they in yours, if not fruits?
Vegetables in supporting roles I guess.
Those are incredibly sweet highly acidic foods. The acid is what balances the sweet.
Both of those are sweet and fruit…?
They are sour. Or tart, in case of pineapples.
You tartness and sweetness are two orthogonal axes. A fruit can be both quite tart and quite sweet, like some varieties of pineapple and cherry.
You are buying shitty pineapple. To select a good pineapple:
Tug at the center most leaf on top of the fruit, it should give easily. It should smell like pineapple. The skin should be golden colored to slight green (sl underripe) or a very slight touch brown (overripe). The bottom should be dry. The very green ones that you can get for $2-3 never ripen properly as they were picked too early.
Informative.
Please change your username to ananasexpert.
As much as I love pineapple my username combines my love of The Mothman, the Mandelorean, And Back to the Future.
I am passionate about fruits and veggies and enjoy helping people discover how to pick good ones.
I want to try the pineapples you’re getting. Ours are sweet, but that’s about it.
As a former worker at a steel plant, I concur.
Underrated comment 👏
Care to explain to this poor guy?
Anything that comes from a plant is a vegetable
former worker at a steel plant concurs
Implying that steel workers are brainless
That’s not really a stubborn position. That’s definitively true.
All fruits are vegetables; not all vegetables are fruit.
Like when the state of Indiana [attempted to change] the definition of pi
Almost changed the definition of pi. It passed the House, but a professor from Purdue happened to be in the Statehouse on unrelated business the day the Senate voted on it. He managed to convince enough Senators that it was a terrible idea and they absolutely roasted it on the floor.
The Wikipedia article on it is great. “Legislative History” is the interesting bit. My favorite part is this:
An assemblyman handed [Prof. Waldo] the bill, offering to introduce him to the genius who wrote it. He declined, saying that he already met as many crazy people as he cared to.
“(…) he already met as many crazy people as he cared to.”
My spirit animal.
Very relatable
Botanical vs culinary. Different contexts; different definition per context. There is not a problem here.
